Are interoperability issues bugs?

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Are interoperability issues bugs?

Dotan Cohen
If ODF documents created in Koffice display differently in Open
Office, or vice versa, is that considered a bug? How can I know if the
particular bug is in Koffice, Open Office, or the ODF spec? I am
considering moving to Koffice but as my colleagues use Open Office
(many of them switching from MS Office at my suggestion)
interoperability is very important to me. I can only move to an office
suite that has the same interoperability goals as I have.

Thanks.

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Re: Are interoperability issues bugs?

Boudewijn Rempt-2
On Tuesday 14 July 2009, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> If ODF documents created in Koffice display differently in Open
> Office, or vice versa, is that considered a bug?

There are places, especially to do with font rendering, when displaying
something different isn't necessarily a bug: pixel perfect interoperability is
really impossible. But in all other cases, yes, it's a bug.

> How can I know if the
> particular bug is in Koffice, Open Office, or the ODF spec?

Unless you know the spec really well, and one of the office suites from the
inside, you probably cannot determine who has made the mistake. If you report
a problem to us and we determine the problem is with openoffice, we will
report that to openoffice.

> I am
> considering moving to Koffice but as my colleagues use Open Office
> (many of them switching from MS Office at my suggestion)
> interoperability is very important to me. I can only move to an office
> suite that has the same interoperability goals as I have.

We're all for interoperability, but please remember that KOffice 2.0 is
platform release meant for developers to build on, not for end users' daily
needs. We're getting closer, but we're not there yet.

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Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
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Re: Are interoperability issues bugs?

Dotan Cohen
> On Tuesday 14 July 2009, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> If ODF documents created in Koffice display differently in Open
>> Office, or vice versa, is that considered a bug?
>
> There are places, especially to do with font rendering, when displaying
> something different isn't necessarily a bug: pixel perfect interoperability is
> really impossible. But in all other cases, yes, it's a bug.
>


Thank you, Boudewijn. Considering your words, would it be acceptable
for me to open documents in the current 2.0 release and file bugs on
reproducible display issues, except font rendering?


>> How can I know if the
>> particular bug is in Koffice, Open Office, or the ODF spec?
>
> Unless you know the spec really well, and one of the office suites from the
> inside, you probably cannot determine who has made the mistake. If you report
> a problem to us and we determine the problem is with openoffice, we will
> report that to openoffice.
>

Thank you, that is good to know that you will file OOo bugs to help
interoperability as end users cannot know the difference. That is very
important, as OOo is the dominant office suite by far.


> We're all for interoperability, but please remember that KOffice 2.0 is
> platform release meant for developers to build on, not for end users' daily
> needs. We're getting closer, but we're not there yet.
>

Then why is it called 2.0? I thought that x.0 means "ready for end users".


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Dotan Cohen

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Re: Are interoperability issues bugs?

Boudewijn Rempt-2
On Tuesday 14 July 2009, Dotan Cohen wrote:

> > On Tuesday 14 July 2009, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> >> If ODF documents created in Koffice display differently in Open
> >> Office, or vice versa, is that considered a bug?
> >
> > There are places, especially to do with font rendering, when displaying
> > something different isn't necessarily a bug: pixel perfect
> > interoperability is really impossible. But in all other cases, yes, it's
> > a bug.
>
> Thank you, Boudewijn. Considering your words, would it be acceptable
> for me to open documents in the current 2.0 release and file bugs on
> reproducible display issues, except font rendering?

Yes, definitely, if you can attach the test documents.

> Then why is it called 2.0? I thought that x.0 means "ready for end users".

Well, it also means "all source compatibility with the previous platform has
been broken, but it's ready to develop new applications on again". For us, it
was the clear watershed between "we can do anything to this code, we don't
care about anyone who uses the code except for us" and "if you develop a new
plugin, we're committed to supporting you from now on". We were pretty careful
in making that clear in the release announcement.

--
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Re: Are interoperability issues bugs?

Inge Wallin-4
In reply to this post by Dotan Cohen
On Tuesday 14 July 2009 14:29:58 Dotan Cohen wrote:
> If ODF documents created in Koffice display differently in Open
> Office, or vice versa, is that considered a bug? How can I know if the
> particular bug is in Koffice, Open Office, or the ODF spec? I am
> considering moving to Koffice but as my colleagues use Open Office
> (many of them switching from MS Office at my suggestion)
> interoperability is very important to me. I can only move to an office
> suite that has the same interoperability goals as I have.

If things are displayed differently, it's likely a bug.  The bug may be in
KOffice or in OpenOffice.org, but in any way we are grateful if you report it.
You can do that on http://bugs.kde.org/. Unfortunately, it's not the easiest
to use webapp on the planet, but not the worst either.

We do want maximum compatibility and interoperability, so that's why all
reports that it doesn't work are so important.

If you want to communicate directly with the developers, you can come into the
#koffice channel on irc.freenode.org.

Best regards,

Inge Wallin
KOffice developer

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Re: Are interoperability issues bugs?

Bugzilla from zander@kde.org
In reply to this post by Dotan Cohen
On Tuesday 14. July 2009 14.37.56 Dotan Cohen wrote:
> > We're all for interoperability, but please remember that KOffice 2.0 is
> > platform release meant for developers to build on, not for end users'
> > daily needs. We're getting closer, but we're not there yet.
>
> Then why is it called 2.0? I thought that x.0 means "ready for end users".

The short answer is that its for integrators, not really for users.

The long answer I wrote here;
http://www.koffice.org/background/starting-the-20-series/

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Re: Are interoperability issues bugs?

Dotan Cohen
In reply to this post by Boudewijn Rempt-2
>> Thank you, Boudewijn. Considering your words, would it be acceptable
>> for me to open documents in the current 2.0 release and file bugs on
>> reproducible display issues, except font rendering?
>
> Yes, definitely, if you can attach the test documents.
>

Terrific, then I will reduce to test cases and attach. Thanks!


>> Then why is it called 2.0? I thought that x.0 means "ready for end users".
>
> Well, it also means "all source compatibility with the previous platform has
> been broken, but it's ready to develop new applications on again". For us, it
> was the clear watershed between "we can do anything to this code, we don't
> care about anyone who uses the code except for us" and "if you develop a new
> plugin, we're committed to supporting you from now on". We were pretty careful
> in making that clear in the release announcement.
>

I see, it is a developers term then. What is the accepted end-user's
term for "this is ready for production use"? I understand that you
clarify in the release notes, but to be honest if I were to read the
release notes of all the software that I use I would never get any
real work done. What is the code-word / version number for "ready for
users"? Is this a KDE-wide term (there were similar problems with KDE
4.0 not being ready for end users)? Note that I am not trying to start
a flame war, even though I know the flamability of the subject, but
rather trying to judge if I can use software that uses nonstandard
terminology. I don't want to get myself into any problems because I
thought that term XYZ, which is acepted to mean ABC in most software,
actually means DEF in Koffice / KDE. That said, I am a happy KDE 4.3
RC2 user.

--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
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Re: Are interoperability issues bugs?

Boudewijn Rempt-2
On Tuesday 14 July 2009, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> >> Thank you, Boudewijn. Considering your words, would it be acceptable
> >> for me to open documents in the current 2.0 release and file bugs on
> >> reproducible display issues, except font rendering?
> >
> > Yes, definitely, if you can attach the test documents.
>
> Terrific, then I will reduce to test cases and attach. Thanks!
>

And thank you -- because that kind of feedback is the most important sort!

> >> Then why is it called 2.0? I thought that x.0 means "ready for end
> >> users".
> >
> > Well, it also means "all source compatibility with the previous platform
> > has been broken, but it's ready to develop new applications on again".
> > For us, it was the clear watershed between "we can do anything to this
> > code, we don't care about anyone who uses the code except for us" and "if
> > you develop a new plugin, we're committed to supporting you from now on".
> > We were pretty careful in making that clear in the release announcement.
>
> I see, it is a developers term then. What is the accepted end-user's
> term for "this is ready for production use"? I understand that you
> clarify in the release notes, but to be honest if I were to read the
> release notes of all the software that I use I would never get any
> real work done. What is the code-word / version number for "ready for
> users"? Is this a KDE-wide term (there were similar problems with KDE
> 4.0 not being ready for end users)? Note that I am not trying to start
> a flame war, even though I know the flamability of the subject, but
> rather trying to judge if I can use software that uses nonstandard
> terminology. I don't want to get myself into any problems because I
> thought that term XYZ, which is acepted to mean ABC in most software,
> actually means DEF in Koffice / KDE. That said, I am a happy KDE 4.3
> RC2 user.

Well... We have tried to keep a really low profile with KOffice 2.0,
intentionally not sending the announcement to the usual channels, and we were
very clear in the announcement itself, as well as towards the distributions:
we have asked all of them not to make KOffice 2.0 their new default. So,
basically, we were hoping that KOffice 2.0 would simply not reach the non-
developer public, while still reaching the developers. That didn't completely
workout -- we had -- quite nice -- reviews on tuxradar and linuxjournals, but
on the whole, most people approaching us knew of the difference.

It's a hard problem, caused by having two audiences at the same time. I don't
think we have a perfect solution, but once we think KOffice 2 is ready (and if
it will reach that stage, it will to a large measure be because of people like
you helping us with bug reports!), we'll certainly have a big splash :-).

--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
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Re: Are interoperability issues bugs?

Alexandra Leisse-4
In reply to this post by Dotan Cohen
Hello!

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 18:37, Dotan Cohen<[hidden email]> wrote:

---> snip <---

> I see, it is a developers term then. What is the accepted end-user's
> term for "this is ready for production use"? I understand that you
> clarify in the release notes, but to be honest if I were to read the
> release notes of all the software that I use I would never get any
> real work done. What is the code-word / version number for "ready for
> users"? Is this a KDE-wide term (there were similar problems with KDE
> 4.0 not being ready for end users)? Note that I am not trying to start
> a flame war, even though I know the flamability of the subject, but
> rather trying to judge if I can use software that uses nonstandard
> terminology. I don't want to get myself into any problems because I
> thought that term XYZ, which is acepted to mean ABC in most software,
> actually means DEF in Koffice / KDE. That said, I am a happy KDE 4.3
> RC2 user.

Currently, all KDE is walking a tight line. It started with KDE 4.0
and has reached nearly all applications by now. The new technologies
introduced with Qt4 and consequently with the KDE4 series forced many
developers to basically rewrite their applications. After a certain
time and amount of work, it was crucial for the further success of
their projects to release them to a knowledgeable audience to gather
feedback. None of the .0 releases were ready for actual daily use. KDE
seems to finally have reached this point with the upcoming 4.3
release.

Unfortunately, this is a rather unusual concept and hard to communicate.

As Boudewijn explained before, we tried to be as clear and careful as
humanly possible with our messages around the 2.0 release. We are
trying to hold the balance between excitement because of a release the
developers have been working on for years and low profile messaging
towards users.

I hope this helps in understanding the thinking behind the whole
versioning and the importance of bug reports at this point. Don't
hesitate to ask if not. :)

Alexandra
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Re: Are interoperability issues bugs?

Dotan Cohen
> Currently, all KDE is walking a tight line. It started with KDE 4.0
> and has reached nearly all applications by now. The new technologies
> introduced with Qt4 and consequently with the KDE4 series forced many
> developers to basically rewrite their applications. After a certain
> time and amount of work, it was crucial for the further success of
> their projects to release them to a knowledgeable audience to gather
> feedback. None of the .0 releases were ready for actual daily use. KDE
> seems to finally have reached this point with the upcoming 4.3
> release.
>
> Unfortunately, this is a rather unusual concept and hard to communicate.
>
> As Boudewijn explained before, we tried to be as clear and careful as
> humanly possible with our messages around the 2.0 release. We are
> trying to hold the balance between excitement because of a release the
> developers have been working on for years and low profile messaging
> towards users.
>
> I hope this helps in understanding the thinking behind the whole
> versioning and the importance of bug reports at this point. Don't
> hesitate to ask if not. :)
>

I understand now that I've been told. Thanks. I hope to get some bugs
filed in the coming weeks.

--
Dotan Cohen

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http://gibberish.co.il
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