Re: Kexi with QT only

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Re: Kexi with QT only

Jaroslaw Staniek-3
On 2 April 2010 09:57, Giuseppe Torelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Kexi is a GREAT software for Linux. An Access alternative was really
> missing before Kexi came to existence. However to use Kexi you have to
> install a bunch of KDE libraries and those Linux users like who don't
> use neither GNOME or KDE to use Kexi have to install a LOT of packages
> only to use one software.

Hi Giuseppe
To be clear: Kexi is KDE application. KDE no longer means K Desktop
Environment, but just KDE.
Thus Kexi depends on some KDE and KOffice libraries exactly as you
noted. These libraries extend (not replace) Qt in many areas. If one
would write app like Kexi from scratch using Qt only, most of the
libraries it needs would have to be  reimplemented or copied. Yet,
users would end up with more libraries loaded in their systems, not
less. How is that possible?
The simple answer is: sharing. KDE applications share common
libraries, or graphics, or even message translations, that in turn are
loaded only once on your system. And this is also e.g. why KOffice
takes a fraction of space that is needed for openoffice.org.

Really, only small applications rewrite everything from scratch, and
the level of integration is poor, e.g. no mime types are properly
handled, settings system is unfamiliar...

At operating system level, what you need to run is just X11 with
window manager (I am sure you know this very well but I mention that
to others). Kexi, like most of KDE apps, does not limit you in
regarding your desktop. So desktop (kde workspace) is not a dependency
and is not installed.
Also, packaging systems install only needed parts, some of them are
large (well, not anymore in 2010) - like icons (shared between apps) -
but how we're talking about GUI program. Kexi itself is even clearly
splitted into packages so users can install only needed components (we
openly work with Linux/Windows/etc. distribution makers to handle that
well - example document: [0])

I strongly encourage users that do not install KDE/Gnome Desktops to
use Kexi, and share the experiences. We can improve  integration
together - but only if we know the issues or wishes. Maybe something
can be improved in packaging at KDE level too. An example of how
stripping down of applications is possible, is the Fremantle Office -
KOffice compilation for maemo (later: MeeGo) mobile phones [1]. It
fits on the phone obviously without Gnom/KDE desktop :)
That said, much of the work is also on  the distributors side, not the
developers.

You're welcome to the Kexi mailing list [2]. There's also KOffice
mailing list [3].

[0] http://websvn.kde.org/*checkout*/trunk/koffice/README.PACKAGERS
[1] http://www.koffice.org/news/office-viewer-for-maemo5-based-on-koffice/
[2] https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi
[3] https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/koffice

--
regards / pozdrawiam, Jaroslaw Staniek
 http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
 Kexi & KOffice (http://www.kexi-project.org, http://www.koffice.org)
 KDE Software Development Platform on MS Windows (http://windows.kde.org)
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Re: Kexi with QT only

Jaroslaw Staniek-3
On 2 April 2010 11:14, Giuseppe Torelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Jaroslaw Staniek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> At operating system level, what you need to run is just X11 with
>> window manager (I am sure you know this very well but I mention that
>> to others). Kexi, like most of KDE apps, does not limit you in
>> regarding your desktop. So desktop (kde workspace) is not a dependency
>> and is not installed.
>> Also, packaging systems install only needed parts, some of them are
>> large (well, not anymore in 2010) - like icons (shared between apps) -
>> but how we're talking about GUI program. Kexi itself is even clearly
>> splitted into packages so users can install only needed components (we
>> openly work with Linux/Windows/etc. distribution makers to handle that
>> well - example document: [0])
>
> Thank you for your detailed answer, I appreciated that but:
>
> gt@gt-desktop:~$ sudo apt-get install kexi
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree
> Reading state information... Done
> The following extra packages will be installed:
>  exiv2 kde-icons-oxygen kdebase-runtime kdebase-runtime-bin-kde4
> kdebase-runtime-data kdebase-runtime-data-common kdelibs-bin
> kdelibs-data kdelibs4c2a kdelibs5 kdelibs5-data
>  khelpcenter4 koffice-data koffice-libs libavahi-qt3-1
> libclucene0ldbl libexiv2-5 libknotificationitem1 liblua50 liblualib50
> liblzma0 libplasma3 libpq5 libpqxx-2.6.9ldbl
>  libqt3-mt libqt4-qt3support libraptor1 librasqal1 librdf0
> libsoprano4 libstreamanalyzer0 libstreams0 libxcb-shape0 libxcb-shm0
> libxcb-xv0 libxine1 libxine1-bin libxine1-console
>  libxine1-misc-plugins libxine1-x phonon-backend-xine raptor-utils
> redland-utils soprano-daemon
>
> The following NEW packages will be installed:
>  exiv2 kde-icons-oxygen kdebase-runtime kdebase-runtime-bin-kde4
> kdebase-runtime-data kdebase-runtime-data-common kdelibs-bin
> kdelibs-data kdelibs4c2a kdelibs5 kdelibs5-data
>  kexi khelpcenter4 koffice-data koffice-libs libavahi-qt3-1
> libclucene0ldbl libexiv2-5 libknotificationitem1 liblua50 liblualib50
> liblzma0 libplasma3 libpq5 libpqxx-2.6.9ldbl
>  libqt3-mt libqt4-qt3support libraptor1 librasqal1 librdf0
> libsoprano4 libstreamanalyzer0 libstreams0 libxcb-shape0 libxcb-shm0
> libxcb-xv0 libxine1 libxine1-bin libxine1-console
>  libxine1-misc-plugins libxine1-x phonon-backend-xine raptor-utils
> redland-utils soprano-daemon
> 0 upgraded, 45 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
> Need to get 69.0MB of archives.
>
> Let's leave xine packages and the others apart but have you noticed I
> am forced to install:

I am not sure xine is needed, could be solved by KDE team and the
packagers team.

> exiv2 kde-icons-oxygen kdebase-runtime kdebase-runtime-bin-kde4
> kdebase-runtime-data kdebase-runtime-data-common kdelibs-bin
> kdelibs-data kdelibs4c2a kdelibs5 kdelibs5-data khelpcenter4
> koffice-data koffice-libs?

I understand your concerns, but if one day you use more than one KDE
app on your non-KDE system, the investment shall pay off. I have had
packaged Kexi 1.x on Windows, which looked a lot like Qt-only app from
your perspective, and you know what? It took itself about 20MB
compressed. So even for 4 such "statically bundled" apps we would
already have consumed 80MB of archives. Example of openoffice.org
shows the case of "statically bundling" - it carries everything with
is, from the display subsystem to the file format handling routines.
No single other app on your computer will use these binaries. For
KDE/KOffice libs you have at least chances for that...

Icons are a must as I said. Also the help center. The data packages
are for infrastructure like mime types handling.
kdebase-runtime is the runtime only, kdebase-workspace makes the
actual KDE Desktop, and is not forced.
The split is exactly for your convenience. I wouldn't worry about the
number of packages (it is exactly the result of fine-grained split).
The sum of 69MB is even smaller than openoffice.org, not mentioning
base java packages... Quite a good match for a runtime component that
is a base for hundred+ apps.

Important reason for troubles in supporting Qt-only versions of a
bigger application is compatibility. If I create a .kexi file with the
full version of Kexi (even if not run Kexi under the KDE Desktop), and
send the file to you, you may be not able to install all the
components (not everything is possible to be Qt-only), and then the
.kexi file won't be fully functional for you. To my understanding that
would be quite a big cost compared to using several dozens of
megabytes of your RAM or hard disk...

--
regards / pozdrawiam, Jaroslaw Staniek
 http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
 Kexi & KOffice (http://www.kexi-project.org, http://www.koffice.org)
 KDE Software Development Platform on MS Windows (http://windows.kde.org)
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Re: [Kexi] Kexi with QT only

smls75 (Bugzilla)
On 2 April 2010 11:14, Giuseppe Torelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> gt@gt-desktop:~$ sudo apt-get install kexi
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree
> Reading state information... Done
> The following extra packages will be installed:
>  [...]
>
> The following NEW packages will be installed:
> [...]

On Ubuntu, apt-get by default installs *all* recommended dependencies
for a package, unless it's told otherwise.
That means that it installs *everything* that might add some slight
additional functionality to Kexi, not only the dependencies that are
absolutely needed for Kexi to function.

I suspect that the "NEW packages will be installed:" list might
possibly be shorter, if you install it with:

    apt-get --no-install-recommends install kexi

Since I don't use Ubuntu/Debian anymore, I can't confirm this myself though.
Also note that I'm only a user of Kexi, not a developer, so I can't
tell you which packages are really required dependencies and which
only allow for some small additional feature which you might not even
use.

Cheers,
Sam
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Re: [Kexi] Kexi with QT only

Jaroslaw Staniek
On 2 April 2010 12:24, Sam S. <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2 April 2010 11:14, Giuseppe Torelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> gt@gt-desktop:~$ sudo apt-get install kexi
>> Reading package lists... Done
>> Building dependency tree
>> Reading state information... Done
>> The following extra packages will be installed:
>>  [...]
>>
>> The following NEW packages will be installed:
>> [...]
>
> On Ubuntu, apt-get by default installs *all* recommended dependencies
> for a package, unless it's told otherwise.
> That means that it installs *everything* that might add some slight
> additional functionality to Kexi, not only the dependencies that are
> absolutely needed for Kexi to function.
>
> I suspect that the "NEW packages will be installed:" list might
> possibly be shorter, if you install it with:
>
>    apt-get --no-install-recommends install kexi

That would definitely be a good note for the "how to install Kexi" web
page. Thanks.

--
regards / pozdrawiam, Jaroslaw Staniek
 http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
 Kexi & KOffice (http://www.kexi-project.org, http://www.koffice.org)
 KDE Software Development Platform on MS Windows (http://windows.kde.org)
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Re: [Kexi] Kexi with QT only

smls75 (Bugzilla)
In reply to this post by smls75 (Bugzilla)
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Giuseppe Torelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> PS
> Which distro do you actually use? I want to leave Xubuntu.

I use Arch Linux now, because:
  1) it has well-packaged, up-to-date KDE 4 packages
  2) it doesn't include unneccessary bloat - you only install what you
actually need (this also makes it a little faster than Ubuntu for many
users)
  3) it doesn't get in your way when you want to manually customize
advanced stuff (e.g. what exactly should be done during/after boot)
  4) it has a good wiki with easy-to-follow tutorials for
accomplishing anything you might imagine
  5) no devel packages: all official packages already include the
corresponding header files, so if you ever need to compile some
additional application from source, you don't need to worry about
installing the right "something-devel" dependency packages first as
you do in Ubuntu...
  6) rolling release approach  (I really hated those upgrades between
Ubuntu versions, which always took hours to complete and depended on a
working Internet connection during this whole time.)

However, it's not for everyone:
  - Point (2) means that it doesn't give you a system where everything
"works out of the box" - in fact, installation is console-based [*1]
and the default install doesn't even include an X server. *You* are
responsible for installing everything *you* want/need. However, as
mentioned above, there are easy howto's/tutorials for every possible
scenario.
  - Point (3) means that you yourself will have to take some
responsibility for maintaining your system, e.g. updating
configuration files, actively reading warnings/suggestions printed by
the package manager and acting upon them, etc. It's not a
works-out-of-the-box thing, where you just click on an "install
available updates" button every now and then and never ever touch any
system files yourself. It's well worth it though, because you'll have
a clean & stable system which you won't need to re-install from
scratch every few months because somehow it got "messed up" (my Ubuntu
experience was like that unfortunately).
  - Point (6) means that only the combination of all packages in their
most current versions can be officially supported, so you're living a
little "on the edge" (e.g. problems might arise if you need to
downgrade a specific package like a kernel driver)

Arch Linux currently has no (stable [*2]) package for Kexi though,
since the KDE 3 version is no longer maintained and the KDE 4 version
of Kexi hasn't officially been released yet - it will be, for the
first time, with KOffice 2.2, at which point also Arch Linux will
start providing packages for it. I myself use a manually-compiled Kexi
from SVN. As mentioned above: self-compiling stuff is easy! :-)

Cheers,
Sam

[*1] Note that the same people who provide the up-to date KDE 4
packages also provide an alternative graphical installer which aims to
make it easier/faster to set up Arch Linux + KDE 4 from scratch - you
can get it at http://www.chakra-project.org
[*2] There seems to be a compiled-from-SVN package there as part of
kdemod-playground, but it's not up-to-date.)
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Re: [Kexi] Kexi with QT only

Bugzilla from robert@narnia.homeunix.com
> [*1] Note that the same people who provide the up-to date KDE 4
> packages also provide an alternative graphical installer which aims to
> make it easier/faster to set up Arch Linux + KDE 4 from scratch - you
> can get it at http://www.chakra-project.org
> [*2] There seems to be a compiled-from-SVN package there as part of
> kdemod-playground, but it's not up-to-date.)

Please note that I am maintaining a set of KDE 4 packages for ArchLinux that
allow you to run latest trunk.  The PKGBUILD scripts were originally created
by Mark Constable, but I have been keeping them up-to-date for some time now.

I  have been using them on my production systems for some time now (I like to
eat my own dog food) and I seldom have any major issues.  Installing them can
be tricky, though, as I'm still working out some kinks in the dependency lists
(I think I'm almost there, though).

You can grab them using git from:

http://www.gitorious.org/kde-git-pkgbuilds

These packages build everything from source, so they do take a little while to
install  . . . but they do include kexi (as well as the rest of koffice).

If you need help getting them to work, please feel free to mail me directly.

Robert Marmorstein

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