liquidshell in kdereview

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liquidshell in kdereview

Martin Koller
Hi all,

I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few weeks - liquidshell

liquidshell is a replacement for plasmashell

It does not use QtQuick but instead relies on QtWidgets,
therefore no hardware graphics acceleration is needed.

Main Features:
- Wallpaper per virtual desktop
- No animations, no CPU hogging, low Memory footprint
- Instant startup
- No use of activities (I never used nor needed them)
- QtWidgets based, therefore follows widget style from systemsettings
- Icons are used from your globally defined icon theme from systemsettings
- Colors are used from your globally defined color theme from systemsettings
- Can additionally be styled with css by passing the commandline option -stylesheet filename.css
  (see included example stylesheet.css)
- uses existing KDE dialogs for most configurations, e.g. StartMenu, Virtual Desktops, Bluetooth, Network
- Just one bottom DesktopPanel, containing:
  StartMenu (allowing drag of entries into konqueror/dolphin to configure QuickLaunch or AppMenu entries)
  QuickLaunch (showing icons for .desktop files from a configurable folder)
  AppMenu (showing .desktop files in a menu from a configurable folder, defaults to users desktop folder)
  Pager (for switching virtual desktops)
  WindowList (Popup showing all open windows on all desktops)
  TaskBar (showing windows on the current desktop, allowing drag of an entry onto the Pager to move to a different desktop)
  LockLogout
  SysLoad widget including CPU, Memory, Swap and Network bars, live updated tooltip
  SysTray with integrated Network-, Notifications-, Device Notifier-, Bluetooth-, Battery- display.
      Display of StatusNotifier items from other applications (no legacy embedded icons yet).
      Notifications kept in a history list for some minutes, including timestamp and text selectable per mouse
      (very handy for copy/paste of TAC numbers from online banking received via SMS and transferred to KDE
       via kdeconnect)
  Clock widget (with calendar popup, tooltip for selected cities)
- Desktop can contain applets (there's currently only a weather applet)

The main motivation was to have a reliable desktop shell which does not hog the CPU or RAM.
(CPU usage and stability were the things driving me mad with plasmashell)
It should be slick and have just the features I need in my daily
work. No need having all the bells and whistles anyone can think of.
Just have a plain, solid, fast workhorse.

I think the final place should be extragear.

Today I put it into openSuse's OBS and 2 packages for tumbleweed and factory are already in place
and ready to be installed.

Screenshots:
light color theme: http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174650.png
dark  color theme: http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174944.png

--
Best regards/Schöne Grüße

Martin
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q: Why is top posting bad?

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\                        - against proprietary attachments

Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at


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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Alexander Potashev
Hi, thanks for the good stuff.

Tried to build it here against relatively old Qt version, failed at
first attempt and had to do some tweaks (see attachment).

OS: gentoo
gcc 5.4.0
Qt 5.7.1
KF 5.37.0

2017-11-03 23:30 GMT+03:00 Martin Koller <[hidden email]>:

> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few weeks - liquidshell
>
> liquidshell is a replacement for plasmashell
>
> It does not use QtQuick but instead relies on QtWidgets,
> therefore no hardware graphics acceleration is needed.
>
> Main Features:
> - Wallpaper per virtual desktop
> - No animations, no CPU hogging, low Memory footprint
> - Instant startup
> - No use of activities (I never used nor needed them)
> - QtWidgets based, therefore follows widget style from systemsettings
> - Icons are used from your globally defined icon theme from systemsettings
> - Colors are used from your globally defined color theme from systemsettings
> - Can additionally be styled with css by passing the commandline option -stylesheet filename.css
>   (see included example stylesheet.css)
> - uses existing KDE dialogs for most configurations, e.g. StartMenu, Virtual Desktops, Bluetooth, Network
> - Just one bottom DesktopPanel, containing:
>   StartMenu (allowing drag of entries into konqueror/dolphin to configure QuickLaunch or AppMenu entries)
>   QuickLaunch (showing icons for .desktop files from a configurable folder)
>   AppMenu (showing .desktop files in a menu from a configurable folder, defaults to users desktop folder)
>   Pager (for switching virtual desktops)
>   WindowList (Popup showing all open windows on all desktops)
>   TaskBar (showing windows on the current desktop, allowing drag of an entry onto the Pager to move to a different desktop)
>   LockLogout
>   SysLoad widget including CPU, Memory, Swap and Network bars, live updated tooltip
>   SysTray with integrated Network-, Notifications-, Device Notifier-, Bluetooth-, Battery- display.
>       Display of StatusNotifier items from other applications (no legacy embedded icons yet).
>       Notifications kept in a history list for some minutes, including timestamp and text selectable per mouse
>       (very handy for copy/paste of TAC numbers from online banking received via SMS and transferred to KDE
>        via kdeconnect)
>   Clock widget (with calendar popup, tooltip for selected cities)
> - Desktop can contain applets (there's currently only a weather applet)
>
> The main motivation was to have a reliable desktop shell which does not hog the CPU or RAM.
> (CPU usage and stability were the things driving me mad with plasmashell)
> It should be slick and have just the features I need in my daily
> work. No need having all the bells and whistles anyone can think of.
> Just have a plain, solid, fast workhorse.
>
> I think the final place should be extragear.
>
> Today I put it into openSuse's OBS and 2 packages for tumbleweed and factory are already in place
> and ready to be installed.
>
> Screenshots:
> light color theme: http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174650.png
> dark  color theme: http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174944.png
>
> --
> Best regards/Schöne Grüße
>
> Martin
> A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
> Q: Why is top posting bad?
>
> ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> /\                        - against proprietary attachments
>
> Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at
>
>


--
Alexander Potashev

hackfix.diff (7K) Download Attachment
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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Martin Koller
On Samstag, 4. November 2017 02:35:27 CET Alexander Potashev wrote:
> Hi, thanks for the good stuff.
>
> Tried to build it here against relatively old Qt version, failed at
> first attempt and had to do some tweaks (see attachment).
>
> OS: gentoo
> gcc 5.4.0
> Qt 5.7.1
> KF 5.37.0

thanks.
I've fixed things now to compile with older Qt (5.6) and older compiler (g++ 4.8.5)

--
Best regards/Schöne Grüße

Martin
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q: Why is top posting bad?

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\                        - against proprietary attachments

Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at


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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Kai Uwe Broulik
In reply to this post by Martin Koller
Hi,

AppMenu.cxx:
* You can use NoDotAndDotDot flag in entryInfoList() to already skip those
* You seem to be using KFileItem and the url you generate just for isDesktopFile(), you could use KDesktopFile::isDesktopFile(), also the isDir() check could come before, a folder cannot be a desktop file

Battery.cxx:
* It's using Solid/Power API that has never been released (and probably never will be..)
* you assume remainingTime() == -1 to be "when on AC", I'm not sure this assumption holds
* secsToHM looks not ideal form an i18n perspective

CMakeLists.txt:
* No project name set

ConfigureDesktopDialog.cxx:
* instead of QOverload or old syntax you can static_cast<void(KUrlRequester::*)(const QString &)>(&KUrlRequester::returnPressed)

ConfigureDesktopDialog.hxx:
* Reason for *returning* const &?

desktop.cxx:
* Missing AA_UseHighDpiPixmaps attribute

DesktopWidget.cxx:
* window type NET::Desktop should imply NET::KeepBelow
* The list of applets is completely hardcoded and makes assumptions in the class (for "Weather" create WeatherApplet) instead of using some plugin/introspection mechanism

LockLogout.cxx:
* Use QDBus instead of calling dbus-send command-line tool or xdg-screensaver

QuickLaunch.cxx:
* Similar issues as AppMenu.cxx
* Internet browser assumes kde.org is start page

StartMenu.cxx:
* Similar issues as LockLogout.cxx

SysTray.cxx:
* The fill function is also awfully hardcoded

General (UI) observations:
* Qt scales it quite well for high-dpi, however the application doesn't announce high dpi support leading to blurry icons, especially tray icons
* The CPU indicator in the panel cannot be disabled and is distracting
* There's lots of I18N substitution errors all over the place (I18N_ARGUMENT_MISSING)
* The "device notifier" lists *all* devices (not just removables) and isn't scrollable if there are lots of devices, network also doesn't seem scrollable
* No battery applet, icon just opens KCM
* "Bluetooth is not operational", why show the icon then
* Notifications doesnt handle multiple incoming ones well (just stacks dialogs ontop of each other)
* Start button breaks Fitt's law (I cannot open it by janking the cursor into the lower-left corner)
* No multi-screen support whatsoever
* I like the background color selector combination of ComboBox and "custom"
* Often uses QString instead of enums
* Task Bar does not announce "iconified geometries" to KWin thus minimize animations go to the wrong place (centre of screen usually)
* The coding style and naming practises do not follow "modern" KDE Frameworks guidelines

Cheers
Kai Uwe
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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Alexander Neundorf
In reply to this post by Martin Koller
On 2017 M11 3, Fri 21:30:19 CET Martin Koller wrote:
> Hi all,
...
> - Just one bottom DesktopPanel, containing:

I always put my panel to the right or left edge (intead at the bottom)...

...
> The main motivation was to have a reliable desktop shell which does not hog
> the CPU or RAM. (CPU usage and stability were the things driving me mad
> with plasmashell) It should be slick and have just the features I need in
> my daily
> work. No need having all the bells and whistles anyone can think of.
> Just have a plain, solid, fast workhorse.

Not sure whether "liquid" is a good choice then, I don't really associate
"solid" with it ;-)

Alex

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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Martin Koller
In reply to this post by Kai Uwe Broulik
Hi,

thanks for you review!

On Samstag, 4. November 2017 19:41:27 CET Kai Uwe Broulik wrote:
> Hi,
>
> AppMenu.cxx:
> * You can use NoDotAndDotDot flag in entryInfoList() to already skip those

I just want to skip ".." - but yes, I can use QDir::AllEntries | QDir::NoDotDot

> * You seem to be using KFileItem and the url you generate just for isDesktopFile(), you could use KDesktopFile::isDesktopFile(), also the isDir() check could come before, a folder cannot be a desktop file

That does not work. KDesktopFile::isDesktopFile() does not open the file but just checks the file extension.
I do have desktop files without extension.
The url is used for starting the desktop file (see the lambda function at the bottom of AppMenu::fill())

> Battery.cxx:
> * It's using Solid/Power API that has never been released (and probably never will be..)

Interesting.
On openSuse 42.2 it is included (released) in the solid-devel package.
On what is "it was never released" based ?
But I have no problem to use something else, if there is a way to know if the AC Power is plugged or not
(and get a signal when it changes).
What can I use instead ?

> * you assume remainingTime() == -1 to be "when on AC", I'm not sure this assumption holds

I don't know either. I think this was based on try/error.
Maybe with an alternative to Solid/Power I can change that.

> * secsToHM looks not ideal form an i18n perspective

Suggestion ?
 
> CMakeLists.txt:
> * No project name set

fixed

> ConfigureDesktopDialog.cxx:
> * instead of QOverload or old syntax you can static_cast<void(KUrlRequester::*)(const QString &)>(&KUrlRequester::returnPressed)

Thanks for the hint, but this is really ugly to write.
I see no advantage in doing so.

> ConfigureDesktopDialog.hxx:
> * Reason for *returning* const &?

You mean this ?
    const DesktopWidget::Wallpaper &getWallpaper() const { return wallpaper; }

Of course. What else ?

> desktop.cxx:
> * Missing AA_UseHighDpiPixmaps attribute

fixed

> DesktopWidget.cxx:
> * window type NET::Desktop should imply NET::KeepBelow

ok, removed

> * The list of applets is completely hardcoded and makes assumptions in the class (for "Weather" create WeatherApplet)
> instead of using some plugin/introspection mechanism

Yes, by intention.
I have currently no plans to have a plugin mechanism

> LockLogout.cxx:
> * Use QDBus instead of calling dbus-send command-line tool or xdg-screensaver

Because ?

> QuickLaunch.cxx:
> * Similar issues as AppMenu.cxx

filter now on QDir::Files

> * Internet browser assumes kde.org is start page

yes. And ?
This is a default entry if the user did not configure anything.
And I don't know how to run the "default web browser" than using KRun() with an http url ...

> StartMenu.cxx:
> * Similar issues as LockLogout.cxx

you mean system() instead QDBus ?
Do you think there might be distributions not shipping the dbus-send command ?
If so, I should change that, else - who cares.

> SysTray.cxx:
> * The fill function is also awfully hardcoded

hardcoded is the part for the features I supply.
Why do you think this is awful ?
 
> General (UI) observations:
> * Qt scales it quite well for high-dpi, however the application doesn't announce high dpi support leading to blurry icons, especially tray icons

since I have no hardware to test that, I did not care.
However I have now added the AA_UseHighDpiPixmaps attribute

> * The CPU indicator in the panel cannot be disabled and is distracting

What I want is a system which is usually idle - which is one reason why I implemented liquidshell in the first place.
On my system, I normally don't see any CPU bar at all. And if I see one, I go and check who's the culprit.

> * There's lots of I18N substitution errors all over the place (I18N_ARGUMENT_MISSING)

how do you see this ? I don't know what to look for or change.

> * The "device notifier" lists *all* devices (not just removables)

That should not happen, since the code filters only on removable devices.
See DeviceList::addDevice():

  // show only removable devices
  if ( device.is<Solid::StorageDrive>() &&
       !device.as<Solid::StorageDrive>()->isRemovable() )
  {
    //qDebug() << device.udi() << "not Removable";
    return;
  }

  // show only removable devices
  if ( device.parent().is<Solid::StorageDrive>() &&
       !device.parent().as<Solid::StorageDrive>()->isRemovable() )
  {
    //qDebug() << device.parent().udi() << "parent() not Removable";
    return;
  }

so which devices do you get which should not appear ?
Or do you know a better way to check for removables only ?

> and isn't scrollable if there are lots of devices,

I can easily add a QScrollArea like in the NotificationList, but I think you usually should not have
that many removable devices which would justify this.
Maybe it's the problem that there are devices shown which should not.
Let's find out which ones.

> network also doesn't seem scrollable

yes, it isn't. But I also think you will not have that many entries shown.
Am I wrong ?

> * No battery applet,

I don't understand.
You'd like to have a battery desktop applet ?
That's of course doable if needed (I just had no need for that).

> icon just opens KCM

More importantly: It shows the current battery status and has a tooltip.
What do you mean by "just" ?

> * "Bluetooth is not operational", why show the icon then

Because otherwise you would not be able to turn it on (a click opens the kcm)

> * Notifications doesnt handle multiple incoming ones well (just stacks dialogs ontop of each other)

interesting use case. never had problems with that, but that can be changed, of course.

> * Start button breaks Fitt's law (I cannot open it by janking the cursor into the lower-left corner)

I can live with that (BTW: in plasmashell you can't either)

> * No multi-screen support whatsoever

commit a03d66c69d78c6eec9f0728c38a597ea874e3787
Author: Martin Koller <[hidden email]>
Date:   Sat Nov 4 13:50:46 2017 +0100

    handle multi-screen setup

    Desktop Panel always only on primary screen,
    Wallpaper drawn per screen in corresponding scaled version


> * I like the background color selector combination of ComboBox and "custom"

thanks, but kudos go to KDE's KColorCombo

> * Often uses QString instead of enums

You probably mean the Weather Applet (units) where this is done since the selected units is used as string
in the URL to be queried.

> * Task Bar does not announce "iconified geometries" to KWin thus minimize animations go to the wrong place (centre of screen usually)

Interesting point. How would I do this ?
(Since openGL does not work on my machine (crappy Intel driver) - therefore also the need to have a widgets based solution -
I don't use animations ...)

> * The coding style and naming practises do not follow "modern" KDE Frameworks guidelines

It's the coding style and naming practises I use for the last 25 years, and liquidshell is no framework lib.

--
Best regards/Schöne Grüße

Martin
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q: Why is top posting bad?

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\                        - against proprietary attachments

Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at


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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Martin Koller
In reply to this post by Alexander Neundorf
On Samstag, 4. November 2017 20:58:49 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On 2017 M11 3, Fri 21:30:19 CET Martin Koller wrote:
> > Hi all,
> ...
> > - Just one bottom DesktopPanel, containing:
>
> I always put my panel to the right or left edge (intead at the bottom)...

Then I fear liquidshell is simply not for you.

> ...
> > The main motivation was to have a reliable desktop shell which does not hog
> > the CPU or RAM. (CPU usage and stability were the things driving me mad
> > with plasmashell) It should be slick and have just the features I need in
> > my daily
> > work. No need having all the bells and whistles anyone can think of.
> > Just have a plain, solid, fast workhorse.
>
> Not sure whether "liquid" is a good choice then, I don't really associate
> "solid" with it ;-)

I was thinking about "solidshell" but "Solid" has already a different meaning inside KDE ...

--
Best regards/Schöne Grüße

Martin
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q: Why is top posting bad?

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\                        - against proprietary attachments

Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at


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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Alexander Neundorf
On 2017 M11 5, Sun 19:27:27 CET Martin Koller wrote:

> On Samstag, 4. November 2017 20:58:49 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > On 2017 M11 3, Fri 21:30:19 CET Martin Koller wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> >
> > ...
> >
> > > - Just one bottom DesktopPanel, containing:
> > I always put my panel to the right or left edge (intead at the bottom)...
>
> Then I fear liquidshell is simply not for you.

... I guess in doubt you wouldn't mind some patches ?

Alex

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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Luca Beltrame-4
In reply to this post by Martin Koller
Il giorno Sun, 05 Nov 2017 19:24:55 +0100
Martin Koller <[hidden email]> ha scritto:


> > * Use QDBus instead of calling dbus-send command-line tool or
> > xdg-screensaver  
> Because ?

Personally, because I don't think that calling random executables from
your program is a good idea.

--
Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team
GPG key ID: A29D259B

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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Aleix Pol Gonzalez-2
In reply to this post by Martin Koller
On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Martin Koller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few weeks - liquidshell
>
> liquidshell is a replacement for plasmashell
>
> It does not use QtQuick but instead relies on QtWidgets,
> therefore no hardware graphics acceleration is needed.
>
> Main Features:
> - Wallpaper per virtual desktop
> - No animations, no CPU hogging, low Memory footprint
> - Instant startup
> - No use of activities (I never used nor needed them)
> - QtWidgets based, therefore follows widget style from systemsettings
> - Icons are used from your globally defined icon theme from systemsettings
> - Colors are used from your globally defined color theme from systemsettings
> - Can additionally be styled with css by passing the commandline option -stylesheet filename.css
>   (see included example stylesheet.css)
> - uses existing KDE dialogs for most configurations, e.g. StartMenu, Virtual Desktops, Bluetooth, Network
> - Just one bottom DesktopPanel, containing:
>   StartMenu (allowing drag of entries into konqueror/dolphin to configure QuickLaunch or AppMenu entries)
>   QuickLaunch (showing icons for .desktop files from a configurable folder)
>   AppMenu (showing .desktop files in a menu from a configurable folder, defaults to users desktop folder)
>   Pager (for switching virtual desktops)
>   WindowList (Popup showing all open windows on all desktops)
>   TaskBar (showing windows on the current desktop, allowing drag of an entry onto the Pager to move to a different desktop)
>   LockLogout
>   SysLoad widget including CPU, Memory, Swap and Network bars, live updated tooltip
>   SysTray with integrated Network-, Notifications-, Device Notifier-, Bluetooth-, Battery- display.
>       Display of StatusNotifier items from other applications (no legacy embedded icons yet).
>       Notifications kept in a history list for some minutes, including timestamp and text selectable per mouse
>       (very handy for copy/paste of TAC numbers from online banking received via SMS and transferred to KDE
>        via kdeconnect)
>   Clock widget (with calendar popup, tooltip for selected cities)
> - Desktop can contain applets (there's currently only a weather applet)
>
> The main motivation was to have a reliable desktop shell which does not hog the CPU or RAM.
> (CPU usage and stability were the things driving me mad with plasmashell)
> It should be slick and have just the features I need in my daily
> work. No need having all the bells and whistles anyone can think of.
> Just have a plain, solid, fast workhorse.
>
> I think the final place should be extragear.
>
> Today I put it into openSuse's OBS and 2 packages for tumbleweed and factory are already in place
> and ready to be installed.
>
> Screenshots:
> light color theme: http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174650.png
> dark  color theme: http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174944.png
>
> --
> Best regards/Schöne Grüße
>
> Martin
> A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
> Q: Why is top posting bad?
>
> ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> /\                        - against proprietary attachments
>
> Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at
>
>

Hi Martin,
I'm a bit confused, who is liquidshell for?

Aleix
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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Martin Koller
In reply to this post by Alexander Neundorf
On Sonntag, 5. November 2017 23:01:52 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:

> On 2017 M11 5, Sun 19:27:27 CET Martin Koller wrote:
> > On Samstag, 4. November 2017 20:58:49 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > > On 2017 M11 3, Fri 21:30:19 CET Martin Koller wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > > - Just one bottom DesktopPanel, containing:
> > > I always put my panel to the right or left edge (intead at the bottom)...
> >
> > Then I fear liquidshell is simply not for you.
>
> ... I guess in doubt you wouldn't mind some patches ?

of course patches are welcome, at least until they do not introduce a whole lot
of troubles (e.g. I fear that the taskbar as it is right now is rather useless
when running the panel vertically, except you make it ridiculously wide).
I just can remember that I tried to fix panel widgets in KDE3 times(!)
where there were troubles with the widgets trying to be useful even in vertical
orientation. But let's see with what you come up ;-)

--
Best regards/Schöne Grüße

Martin
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q: Why is top posting bad?

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\                        - against proprietary attachments

Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at


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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Martin Koller
In reply to this post by Aleix Pol Gonzalez-2
On Montag, 6. November 2017 01:57:32 CET Aleix Pol wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Martin Koller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few weeks - liquidshell
> >
> > liquidshell is a replacement for plasmashell
> >

>
> Hi Martin,
> I'm a bit confused, who is liquidshell for?

Whoever does not like plasmashell, for whatever reason.
My reasons are mentioned in the README or the announcement mail.
Free software is about choice, no ?

--
Best regards/Schöne Grüße

Martin
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q: Why is top posting bad?

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\                        - against proprietary attachments

Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at


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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Tomaz Canabrava-2


On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Martin Koller <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Montag, 6. November 2017 01:57:32 CET Aleix Pol wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Martin Koller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few weeks - liquidshell
> >
> > liquidshell is a replacement for plasmashell
> >

>
> Hi Martin,
> I'm a bit confused, who is liquidshell for?

Whoever does not like plasmashell, for whatever reason.
My reasons are mentioned in the README or the announcement mail.
Free software is about choice, no ?

It is, of course. Then, it's also about non-fragmentation, and you know, human resources are spare.
I know it's your time and your project and I will never tell you what to do,
but considering that there's lxqt which  exists basically for the same 'whatever reasons', why not help them instead of creating yet another desktop shell?


--
Best regards/Schöne Grüße

Martin
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q: Why is top posting bad?

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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Kevin Funk-2
On Monday, 6 November 2017 10:03:05 CET Tomaz Canabrava wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Martin Koller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Montag, 6. November 2017 01:57:32 CET Aleix Pol wrote:
> > > On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Martin Koller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few
> >
> > weeks - liquidshell
> >
> > > > liquidshell is a replacement for plasmashell
> > >
> > > Hi Martin,
> > > I'm a bit confused, who is liquidshell for?
> >
> > Whoever does not like plasmashell, for whatever reason.
> > My reasons are mentioned in the README or the announcement mail.
> > Free software is about choice, no ?
>
> It is, of course. Then, it's also about non-fragmentation, and you know,
> human resources are spare.
> I know it's your time and your project and I will never tell you what to
> do,
> but considering that there's lxqt which  exists basically for the same
> 'whatever reasons', why not help them instead of creating yet another
> desktop shell?
So much +1.

I'm really sad to see more fragmentation in the DE space instead of finding
people investing their time helping existing projects, even more so if there's
one aiming for the same goal under the KDE umbrella.

You're free to work on whatever you like to of course, but to me this sounds
like wasted effort. Your good incentives would be better spent with joining up
with others aiming for the same (LxQt for instance).

Hate to be the party pooper here, but I'm just not sure this kind of
fragmentation helps KDE in the long-term, where we really have a hard time
finding contributors for the majority of our *existing* projects.

Regards,
Kevin

> > Best regards/Schöne Grüße
> >
> > Martin
> > A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
> > Q: Why is top posting bad?
> >
> > ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> > /\                        - against proprietary attachments
> >
> > Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at

--
Kevin Funk | [hidden email] | http://kfunk.org

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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Alexander Potashev
2017-11-06 14:16 GMT+03:00 Kevin Funk <[hidden email]>:
> You're free to work on whatever you like to of course, but to me this sounds
> like wasted effort. Your good incentives would be better spent with joining up
> with others aiming for the same (LxQt for instance).

Hi,

I had a bad impression of LxQt because:
 1. it didn't work for me out of the box,
 2. it consists of many components, it's hard to figure out which of
them are optional,
 3. it has poor infrastructure compared to KDE, e.g. their i18n server
hadn't been working for about a year.

Thus liquidshell looks better to me than lxqt; joining an inferior
project is not a good idea.

--
Alexander Potashev
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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Tomaz Canabrava-2


On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Alexander Potashev <[hidden email]> wrote:
2017-11-06 14:16 GMT+03:00 Kevin Funk <[hidden email]>:
> You're free to work on whatever you like to of course, but to me this sounds
> like wasted effort. Your good incentives would be better spent with joining up
> with others aiming for the same (LxQt for instance).

Hi,

I had a bad impression of LxQt because:
 1. it didn't work for me out of the box,

For many people kde applications don't work out of the box too.

 2. it consists of many components, it's hard to figure out which of
them are optional,

Also true for kde applications.

 3. it has poor infrastructure compared to KDE, e.g. their i18n server
hadn't been working for about a year.

I cant comment on that - but the project seems to be alive as there was a new release just last month with a lot of changes, also they use kf5 libraries where needed.
 
Thus liquidshell looks better to me than lxqt; joining an inferior
project is not a good idea.

please refrain from using words like 'inferior' for a project as it's not helpful.
Currently the whole code for liquidshell is done for one person, and we (as in the KDE Sc) suffer for a lot of good projects and ideas that as soon as the original developers get tired the project stalls,
like Macaw Movie, Spectacle, Baloo and quite a few others - so I'm really afraid of a one-man-project that's basically what other many projects already do.

About liquidshell, I tried but it didn't even compile on my machine (some issue with Solid)


 

--
Alexander Potashev

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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Friedrich W. H. Kossebau-2
In reply to this post by Martin Koller
Hi Martin,

Am Freitag, 3. November 2017, 21:30:19 CET schrieb Martin Koller:
> I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few weeks
> - liquidshell

Congrats to the achievement. It surely feels good to run a workspace one has
created one themselves :)

While myself I will choose Plasma over liquidshell due to my needs and
expectations of certain features, I can see that liquidshell would satisfy
those persons who need or want just a simple hard-coded shell following a
well-known UI design & concept, yet stay with the usual tools and apps from
the KDE software world, ideally perfectly integrated with the workspace (think
filemanager, terminal, text editor, etc). People like obviously yourself :) So
those persons might be surely happy about you sharing your work with them.

My hopes for liquidshell as another project under the KDE community umbrella:
* improvements for shared middleware, perhaps even introducing some more
  where it makes sense to share between Plasma, liquidshell & others
  (pushing for more clear UI-core separation, which in theory is for good)
  libtm might be one such thing, the weather data provider system also calls
  for being shared code with Plasma (and e.g. the Marble weather plugin)
* another testing ground for protocols & standards in development
* make more obvious that "KDE" is about a community, not a certain software
* give perhaps remaining trinity desktop developers and other
  Plasma-no-Qt-jay-fans a new center for their goals and as result also new
  contributors for the shared middleware, tools and apps (at least for their
  current QtWidgets UI variant ;) )

Re: gosh, yet another workspace
In a perfect world everybody would join work on the one true golden workspace
solution, reality is that there is no such one-workspace-which-fits-all. Not
to forget the mythical person-month issue.

And if people rather go and write their own software instead of joining
existing projects, it should be the projects asking themselves why they have
not been attractive enough in the first place.
Telling people instead "you should not do X, but Y" is rather the opposite of
what Free Software is about. Even when first saying "Your are free, but".

I applaud you, Martin, for managing to solve your needs yourself and for
sharing the results with the rest of the world, instead of keeping them for
yourself.
And as KDE community we can feel honored you trust us to be the best place for
further development of your software, instead of going github or elsewhere.

Re: liquidshell as name
When I read liquidshell I first thought about something very dynamic, highly
animated. So not sure "liquid" is the best term to use in the name. But then
we all know naming is hard, good luck with it :)

Cheers
Friedrich
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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Friedrich W. H. Kossebau-2
In reply to this post by Martin Koller
Some more branding oriented nitpicks:

Am Freitag, 3. November 2017, 21:30:19 CET schrieb Martin Koller:
> - uses existing KDE dialogs for most configurations, e.g. StartMenu, Virtual
> Desktops, Bluetooth, Network

Please consider saying rather "KDE Frameworks dialogs", due to "KDE dialogs"
being a concept which no longer exists at age of KDE Frameworks and Plasma.

> light color theme:
> http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174650.png dark  color
> theme: http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174944.png

Please consider using a non-KDE logo on the start menu on representative/
advertising screenshots (ideally some new liquidshell logo one, also to help
promoting it and building an identity).
Given the history meaning of the KDE logo as the logo of a desktop, using the
KDE logo will spoil the concerted effort of the rebranding done (whether it
was a good idea or not is too late to discuss) and only continue the
confusion, for no good.

So with the Plasma workspaces having moved to the Plasma logo, leaving the KDE
logo for the community, liquidshell should have and use its own dedicated logo
as well. (and yes, the start-here-kde icons would need renaming finally)

Cheers
Friedrich
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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Martin Koller
In reply to this post by Tomaz Canabrava-2
On Montag, 6. November 2017 10:03:05 CET Tomaz Canabrava wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Martin Koller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Montag, 6. November 2017 01:57:32 CET Aleix Pol wrote:
> > > On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Martin Koller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few
> > weeks - liquidshell
> > > >
> > > > liquidshell is a replacement for plasmashell
> > > >
> >
> > >
> > > Hi Martin,
> > > I'm a bit confused, who is liquidshell for?
> >
> > Whoever does not like plasmashell, for whatever reason.
> > My reasons are mentioned in the README or the announcement mail.
> > Free software is about choice, no ?
> >
>
> It is, of course. Then, it's also about non-fragmentation, and you know,
> human resources are spare.
> I know it's your time and your project and I will never tell you what to
> do,
> but considering that there's lxqt which  exists basically for the same
> 'whatever reasons', why not help them instead of creating yet another
> desktop shell?

lxqt say on their web page "The Lightweight Qt Desktop Environment"

I don't want to create yet another Desktop Environment.
I was just unhappy with plasmashell, which liquidshell replaces

--
Best regards/Schöne Grüße

Martin
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q: Why is top posting bad?

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\                        - against proprietary attachments

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Re: liquidshell in kdereview

Martin Koller
In reply to this post by Friedrich W. H. Kossebau-2
On Montag, 6. November 2017 17:37:15 CET Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> Some more branding oriented nitpicks:
>
> Am Freitag, 3. November 2017, 21:30:19 CET schrieb Martin Koller:
> > - uses existing KDE dialogs for most configurations, e.g. StartMenu, Virtual
> > Desktops, Bluetooth, Network
>
> Please consider saying rather "KDE Frameworks dialogs", due to "KDE dialogs"
> being a concept which no longer exists at age of KDE Frameworks and Plasma.

changed
 

> > light color theme:
> > http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174650.png dark  color
> > theme: http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174944.png
>
> Please consider using a non-KDE logo on the start menu on representative/
> advertising screenshots (ideally some new liquidshell logo one, also to help
> promoting it and building an identity).
> Given the history meaning of the KDE logo as the logo of a desktop, using the
> KDE logo will spoil the concerted effort of the rebranding done (whether it
> was a good idea or not is too late to discuss) and only continue the
> confusion, for no good.
>
> So with the Plasma workspaces having moved to the Plasma logo, leaving the KDE
> logo for the community, liquidshell should have and use its own dedicated logo
> as well. (and yes, the start-here-kde icons would need renaming finally)

I'm very bad at creating appealing graphics, therefore I used exiting icons where
possible.
Is there some KDE artist who is willing to create a new logo for me ?

Regarding the rebranding: does that mean KDE (the people behind the project)
does not like to promote KDE ?
Very confusing in my view.
I really meant to show "that is a KDE (based) application" by using its logo -
was not clear that this is not welcomed.

--
Best regards/Schöne Grüße

Martin
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q: Why is top posting bad?

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\                        - against proprietary attachments

Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at


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